Abortion should be illegal
in Politics

Ankozzz · June 2019

Help me understand the pro-choice side of the abortion argument.

Dee · June 2019

What your saying is women should be criminalised for deciding to defend their right to bodily autonomy, to deny a woman choice is to grant a fetus a right by denying a woman her right to bodily autonomy, why should any implied rights of a fetus trump those of the woman?

Plaffelvohfen · June 2019

Ankozzz said:

Help me understand the pro-choice side of the abortion argument.

Ok, to understand the position there are a few steps involved...

1: We have to talk about bodily autonomy... It means a person has control over who or what uses their body, for what, and for how long. It's why you cannot be forced to donate blood, tissue, organs. Even if you're dead, even if it would save or improve 20 lives... It's why someone can't touch you, have sex with you, or use your body in any way without your continuous consent.

A fetus is using someone's body parts. Therefore, under bodily autonomy it is there by permission, not by right. It needs a person continuous consent. if they deny or withdraw consent, for any reason whatsoever, the pregnant person has a right to remove them from that moment. A fetus is equal in this regard because if I need someone else's body parts to live, they also can legally deny me their use.

By saying a fetus has a right to someone's body parts until it's born, despite the pregnant person's wishes, you're doing 2 things...

a: Granting a fetus more rights to other people's body part than any born person.
b: Awarding a pregnant person less rights to their body than a corpse.

2: Now at this point people usually invoke the right to life, but the important thing is that the right to life does not entail a right to someone body in whole or in part, without their continuous consent... So far, no one has been able to demonstrate how and why it could/should entail such a right...

The point of abortion is NOT to kill the baby, it's to remove it from the woman's body... Killing is not the intent, it's a consequence yes but only at the moment, science may well find a way to move a fetus to an artificial womb in the future, when this is achieved, this consequence (death) will be completely avoidable and killing an embryo/fetus would have no legal justifications at all... Until then, it's a matter between the woman and her own conscience or god if she fancies one...

YeshuaRedeemed · June 2019

How do you feel about birth control?

John_C_87 · June 2019

Dee said:

What your saying is women should be criminalised for deciding to defend their right to bodily autonomy, to deny a woman choice is the grant a fetus a right by denying a woman her right to bodily autonomy, why should any implied rights of a fetus trump those of the woman?

Unless you can find woman, who keep the baby inside their body without birth in whole truth as united state all woman fight to control their position in the establishment of citizens of a nation. Then we are simply saying like the rest of the world woman should have the United State Constitutional right to be punished for how they defend their bodies.

John_C_87 · June 2019

@Plaffelvohfen ;

A fetus is using someone's body parts. Therefore, under bodily autonomy it is there by permission, not by right. It needs a person continuous consent. if they deny or withdraw consent, for any reason whatsoever, the pregnant person has a right to remove them from that moment. A fetus is equal in this regard because if I need someone else's body parts to live, they also can legally deny me their use.

The woman’s permission was given with all consensual sexual activity and is a poor argument for a united state constitutional right. The biggest argument is as a united state is sexual activity would need to be documented in writing as consensual.

The united state all woman creates by sacrificing the privacy of all women with publicly disclosure is citizenship not body autonomy. A woman is arguing the right to decline the crossing of a border into America as the basic principles.

Body control would be made, proven by not having sexual intercourse which ended in fertilization of the already living egg.

As common defense pregnancy abortion needs a coaching influence to help hide the self-incrimination described as crime publicly by all woman to complete the idea of alibi as a justification to use lethal force, or lie about original consent of sex. In whole truth the pro-choice, pro-life innuendo is a method to limit any woman's united state constitutional right, however the overall principle may be designed to create a civil legal practice which has failed in attempts to protect the union of Marriage as a civil union. As far-fetched as that sounds, truth stranger than fiction.

John_C_87 · June 2019

YeshuaRedeemed said:

How do you feel about birth control?

John_C_87 · June 2019

YeshuaRedeemed said:

How do you feel about birth control?

"A woman’s Virginia should have a federal speed limit."

Plaffelvohfen · June 2019

@John_C_87

John, unless you can demonstrate that the right to life ENTAILS a right to someone else body without continuous consent, you have no arguments...

Your argument here is irrelevant and fallacious, consensual sexual activity is in no way a consent for pregnancy and this consent NEEDS to be continuous...

John_C_87 · June 2019

Plaffelvohfen said:

@John_C_87

John, unless you can demonstrate that the right to life ENTAILS a right to someone else body without continuous consent, you have no arguments...

Your argument here is irrelevant and fallacious, consensual sexual activity is in no way a consent for pregnancy and this consent NEEDS to be continuous...

Nope. It doesn't. All I haver to demonstrate is all woman can get pregnant by having sperm swim into contact with the living egg inside a woman. Like I sated as fact pregnancy does not continue it has a end in which the woman must seek a place to announce citizen ship as united state. Well unless maybe woman move into international water or outer-space?

Your argument here is irrelevant and fallacious, consensual sexual activity is in no way a consent for pregnancy and this consent NEEDS to be continuous... Your trying to argue a whole truth as a right or wrong. No my argument is not wrong or irrelevant murder has no statute of limitation and you are dragging all men as a united state scream and yelling into this argument, as they are accomplice or a accused criminal. 9 months + or - yep, sorry read my lips no new continuance of permission.

Again the argument is over the crossing of a international border created by the woman's body and (all nations) as a Untied State. Sending the egg/sperm combo back to were it came is not murder if it is returning directly from an origin state. The actual basic principle is not when life starts by how may times it can be continued to an end, this directing us to the proof of demonstration your requested of truth.

John, unless you can demonstrate that the right to life ENTAILS a right to someone else body without continuous consent, you have no argument...
Yes, we can demonstrate this together providing you ovulate or know some-one who does, are truthful, and do not mind once. Not one egg askes for permission to enter the woman's body. Ever. Not one sperm ever asks for permission to enter a male body ever, and they enter by the millions.

Keep in mind in basic principle I am saying a woman does have a Constitutional right to body antimony, you are however not representing it in truth, and are not going to reach that status of Constitutional in the direction you are heading, as there is already the commitment to a what is argued as a legal self-incrimination to deal with.

Plaffelvohfen · June 2019

@John_C_87

I'll interact again with you when you'll agree to finally use a common vocabulary and not your very own thesaurus with meanings that only you understand...

YeshuaRedeemed · June 2019

John_C_87 said:

YeshuaRedeemed said:

How do you feel about birth control?

I feel good about birth control too, because it acts prior to conception.

John_C_87 · June 2019

Plaffelvohfen said:

@John_C_87

John, unless you can demonstrate that the right to life ENTAILS a right to someone else body without continuous consent, you have no arguments...

Your argument here is irrelevant and fallacious, consensual sexual activity is in no way a consent for pregnancy and this consent NEEDS to be continuous...

Yes, I can demonstrate that, shall I continue to argue?

John_C_87 · June 2019

@Plaffelvohfen ;

In whole truth, as if we are under oath in a court of law, I can say that the united state the woman and men share equally after puberty is the death of a baby by not stopping the woman's ovulation process with the use of pregnancy.

John_C_87 · June 2019

@Plaffelvohfen ;

As a male the argument all woman make is holding hostages in the interpreted use of lethal force, in truth the reestablishment of any woman's ovulation can just as easily be a immigration issue as a citizen of a nation is created by all woman, all Countries. Again this is a an argument of what places all woman in a independent group best an admission regardless of truth, or an immigration issue which is open to many points of legal precedent as a general condition.

piloteer · June 2019

@YeshuaRedeemed

This is totally off subject, but I didn't realize you were into hardcore music. The symbol on your avatar is the straight edge symbol used by many hardcore bands in the 90s. The "X" protects was a slogan used by the anti-drug and alcohol hardcore scene. It started when hardcore bands played at clubs that allowed minors in. The minors were marked on their hands with an X, so the bartenders would know not to serve them. It's also used as a vegan and abstinence symbol now. #SAMBLACKCHURCH #SUPPORTYOURLOCALSCHENE

piloteer · June 2019

Oh ya. Abortion is OK in my book.

YeshuaRedeemed · June 2019

@piloteer I am part of the #ProtectX movement. It is about protecting access to birth control. I consensually had my tubes removed for birth control, covered by insurance, so this is super important to me. The X stands for Title X, a federally funded family planning program that provide birth control, disease testing, and cervical cancer screenings, to people at little, or not cost. Title X is also why I was able to take free progestin pills after I was raped, for emergency birth control. I hope that helps. I got my avatar, from Planned Parenthood.

piloteer · June 2019

@YeshuaRedeemed

Oh. I didn't realize that's what it meant. Sorry for the misconception

YeshuaRedeemed · June 2019

@piloteer It's all good. I do that sometimes.

Ankozzz · June 2019

@Dee
I guess the biggest difference between our ideologies is that I don’t believe an unborn child is simply a fetus. Do you believe that a fetus becomes a child at any point while they are in the womb or should we all refer to unborn children as fetuses even when the baby is about to be born? When a mother is about to have a child should she say, “The fetus is coming!” Or at that point is it a human baby?

Dee · June 2019

@Ankozz

You say....... I guess the biggest difference between our ideologies is that I don’t believe an unborn child is simply a fetus. How do you know what my ideologies are?

My reply ...........So what is a fetus as in what does the term mean?

Why do you say unborn “child”? What you’re doing here is attempting to apply personhood to the unborn

You say .......Do you believe that a fetus becomes a child at any point while they are in the womb or should we all refer to unborn children as fetuses even when the baby is about to be born?

My reply ......A fetus is never a “child” you and others may refer to them however you wish

child

/tʃʌɪld/

noun

a young human being below the age of puberty or below the legal age of majority."she'd been playing tennis since she was a child"

4	3 youngster, young one, little one, boy, girl; More

You say ......When a mother is about to have a child should she say, “The fetus is coming!” Or at that point is it a human baby?

My reply .......The mother can say she’s having a kitten for all I care , it’s a baby when it’s born that’s the difference between born and unborn ......You and others do not really believe it’s a baby in the way you accept a newborn is and I can prove it

baby

/ˈbeɪbi/

noun

1.
a very young child."his wife's just had a baby"

4	3 infant, newborn, child, tot, little one; More

Ankozzz · June 2019

@Dee

First off, it was my mistake to assume you had a specific ideology.
By ideology, I mean that there are two sides of the abortion argument:
pro- choice and anti-abortion. Correct me if I’m wrong, but your standpoint appears to be pro-choice.

Before I go any further, I’d like to know more about your ideology (in terms of the definition above). If you are in fact pro-choice, to what extent? More specifically, what restrictions, if any, would you place on abortion?

Dee · June 2019

@Ankozzz

You say ......First off, it was my mistake to assume you had a specific ideology.

By ideology, I mean that there are two sides of the abortion argument:

pro- choice and anti-abortion. Correct me if I’m wrong, but your standpoint appears to be pro-choice.

My reply .....It’s all good no worries. My position centers totally around the fact that women are being denied the right to choice in favour of an unborn , we are granting a right to an unborn over the right of a woman to have bodily autonomy

You say ........Before I go any further, I’d like to know more about your ideology (in terms of the definition above). If you are in fact pro-choice, to what extent? More specifically, what restrictions, if any, would you place on abortion?

My reply ....... I would prefer early stage abortions as opposed to later stage but that’s merely my personal views on the matter

John_C_87 · June 2019

@Dee

There aren’t just two sides of the pregnancy abortion argument, Pro-choice and Anti-abortion. The idea that legislation of Pro-choice or pro-life/ anti-abortion is even a choice and not a description of a demand is Constitutionally in doubt and questionable in legislation of law. A basic principle of making admission or not is not a choice it is just the extension of the guilt created when identifying the egg dies by abortion in the first place, when the woman does not attempt to fertilize the egg. The alibi used to the admission itself creates at least a third side which is not represented in the supposed idea of choices, this is the fuel for the controversy, hiding the very real crime all woman set in a group by a self-incrimination. The woman is not the doorknob she is the doorway in this matter.

Self-incrimination is allowed to spread, while woman do not address the United State precedent of the entry into a nation as a border being part of a liberty of free "choice", as that border line does exist, and must be crossed by person having a lot to do with the explanation of "Choices" to be made. In a civil right question. When illegal immigrant is sent back to where is came it is not a murder when the beginning is the start of creation itself. Woman have created a diplomatic immunity and that immunity is subject to United States diplomacy when conducted inside the American territories. Female specific amputation is not Pregnancy abortion, all woman are to be created equal and a woman does not have a right to violate the privacy of another woman.

Ankozzz · June 2019

@Dee

Previously, you said “a fetus is never a child”

When I say child I am trying to ask you if you believe it is human.

So do you believe that a fetus becomes a human at any point in a pregnancy?

Dee · June 2019

@Ankozzz

You say .......Previously, you said “a fetus is never a child”

My reply .....Show me where I stated that in those exact words?

Incidentally , I gave you the definition of a child , a fetus is not a child

You say ......When I say child I am trying to ask you if you believe it is human.

My reply ......It lacks personhood so no a fetus is not a person

You say .......So do you believe that a fetus becomes a human at any point in a pregnancy?

My reply .....Is this going somewhere? I care not what labels you wish to apply to the unborn what’s your point?

Plaffelvohfen · June 2019

@Dee

I personally have no problem at all granting personhood to a fetus, embryo or even zygote, it's not a matter of what the fetus is but what the fetus does : Using someone else body...
Arguing about what it is (human or not), is missing the point about bodily autonomy...

Dee · June 2019

@Plaffelvohfen

Yes fair point , these debates always go the same way as regards terminology I am all for a woman having free choice in the matter regards what she does with her body , I’m just curious as to why the against side are obsessed with these terms as my position doesn’t change either way

John_C_87 · June 2019

Dee said:

@Plaffelvohfen

Yes fair point , these debates always go the same way as regards terminology I am all for a woman having free choice in the matter regards what she does with her body , I’m just curious as to why the against side are obsessed with these terms as my position doesn’t change either way

Um reality check a woman has been placed in Armed Service to the United State of Constitution and sovereignty of multiple nations they no longer have body autonomy.

Have body autonomy it was part of the discovery recognition in civil allegations of discrimination. Where rape, is still an act of raping, a women’s life can be put in harm’s way without direct combat she no longer in whole truth has body autonomy as a basic principle to bargain with in terms of service.

Besides that truth a woman needs to prove she is like a living snake and conceive a child without sperm, or she does not have full control of her body, she is dependent on outside influence by way of sperm. Woman giving woman an immunity from law is a product of the diplomatic process of international diplomacy not law by legislation.

John_C_87 · June 2019

I get it woman are equal to men, some simple have no idea of how to preserve constitutional principle by creating all woman as equal and require additional guidance.

Plaffelvohfen · June 2019

Dee said:

@Plaffelvohfen

Yes fair point , these debates always go the same way as regards terminology I am all for a woman having free choice in the matter regards what she does with her body , I’m just curious as to why the against side are obsessed with these terms as my position doesn’t change either way

With regards to WHY some of the pro-life crowd insist on using the term "baby" and such is because it is emotionally charged... Now, I don't imply that they are intentionally trying to make the fallacious appeal to emotions, (though some probably are disingenuous enough to), but it's because that is what ultimately drives them, their emotions not their reasoning... They can't see the flaw in thinking emotionally.

Ankozzz · June 2019

@Dee
You said “a fetus is never a child” in the same post as your definition of child (right before you defined child)

To you, it may seem that I am trying to use correct terminology or something, but the most important aspect of an argument is our understanding of certain terms and ideas. Why would my goal be to define terms? I’m trying to understand you. You are the one who started with the terminology thing. I said “unborn child” not because of connotations or emotions associated with it, but because that is what I view it as. I don’t look at a pregnant woman and immediately think there is a “fetus” inside of her.

“Labels” matter because if you don’t view the unborn as human, then I have to use a different path of reasoning to understand you.

With regards to “my point” or “where this is going”, I’ve grown up with anti-abortion views and I’m asking you questions and trying to be thorough so that I fully understand you.

So, what is personhood? I know I can look up definitions myself, but it is clear to me that different people associate words with different emotions and I want to understand you specifically.

John_C_87 · June 2019

That is not always true Plaffelvofen emotions are instigated by the admission used to described crime with an alibi when we talk about Pregnancy abortion.

John_C_87 · June 2019

Plaffelvohfen said at Dee:

I personally have no problem at all granting personhood to a fetus, embryo or even zygote, it's not a matter of what the fetus is but what the fetus does : Using someone else body...
Arguing about what it is (human or not), is missing the point about bodily autonomy...

Your basic principle of argument is not true. Though not all human eggs are part of the woman’s body by scientific influence, it is only by scientific influence the egg is introduced and not created into the woman’s body. Otherwise the precedent of the status of egg is consistently temporary in all area's. When arguing equality, meaning creating all woman as equal the egg has equal constitutional right as part of a woman's body, as all other parts and again it is only through medical alteration is this ever changed. So surgically a Medical Doctor is performing an amputation on a woman as whole truth not pregnancy abortion.

All woman officially end the life of a new egg by not fertilizing it, this is a legal precedent and is established with all woman as a united state. Therefore a woman’s united state constitutional control is over her ovulation not the pregnancy, meaning the egg has now sought independence. This confirmed as fact as a woman who seeks some kind of medical advice during pregnancy is more likely to have a successful delivery.

The principle of the word delivery means brought into a nation as citizen this is something all woman might share with other woman. Making the United State Constitutional right of termination about diplomacy and diplomatic immunity not legislation of law as law does not provide this type immunity. The Supreme Court ruling has already be established on a violation of privacy, to where woman and not only men have violated a persons privacy in connection to Pregnancy Abortion.

Dee · June 2019

@Ankozzz

You say ......You said “a fetus is never a child” in the same post as your definition of child (right before you defined child)

My reply .....Again Show me where I used these exact words I’ve asked you this once and you fail to show me where I said this exactly as you quote , I defined child for you as you think a fetus a child

You say .....To you, it may seem that I am trying to use correct terminology or something, but the most important aspect of an argument is our understanding of certain terms and ideas. Why would my goal be to define terms? I’m trying to understand you.

My reply ......You’re not trying to understand as you in fact used the term child for the unborn ......

Here you go in your own words .........I guess the biggest difference between our ideologies is that I don’t believe an unborn child is simply a fetus......

There you go your words not mine

You say .......You are the one who started with the terminology thing. I said “unborn child” not because of connotations or emotions associated with it, but because that is what I view it as. I don’t look at a pregnant woman and immediately think there is a “fetus” inside of her.

My reply .......I didn’t start any terminology battle I mentioned a woman’s right to choice If you don’t like the term fetus I care not call it what you want , so again what’s your point regards a woman’s right to choice?

You say .......” Labels” matter because if you don’t view the unborn as human, then I have to use a different path of reasoning to understand you.

My reply .....Well maybe you might actually present it?

You say ......With regards to “my point” or “where this is going”, I’ve grown up with anti-abortion views and I’m asking you questions and trying to be thorough so that I fully understand you.

My reply .....I’ve laid my views out from the start I’m waiting on you to make a defence

You say .......So, what is personhood? I know I can look up definitions myself, but it is clear to me that different people associate words with different emotions and I want to understand you specifically.

My reply .......So you don’t know what a person is really?

Dee · June 2019

@Ankozzz

You say ......You said “a fetus is never a child” in the same post as your definition of child (right before you defined child)

My reply ..... I defined child for you as you think a fetus is a child , what is a fetus in your mind or is there no such thing?

You say .....To you, it may seem that I am trying to use correct terminology or something, but the most important aspect of an argument is our understanding of certain terms and ideas. Why would my goal be to define terms? I’m trying to understand you.

My reply ......You’re not trying to understand as you in fact used the term child for the unborn ......

Here you go in your own words .........I guess the biggest difference between our ideologies is that I don’t believe an unborn child is simply a fetus......

There you go your words not mine

You say .......You are the one who started with the terminology thing. I said “unborn child” not because of connotations or emotions associated with it, but because that is what I view it as. I don’t look at a pregnant woman and immediately think there is a “fetus” inside of her.

My reply .......I didn’t start any terminology battle I mentioned a woman’s right to choice If you don’t like the term fetus I care not call it what you want , so again what’s your point regards a woman’s right to choice?

You say .......” Labels” matter because if you don’t view the unborn as human, then I have to use a different path of reasoning to understand you.

My reply .....Well maybe you might actually present it?

You say ......With regards to “my point” or “where this is going”, I’ve grown up with anti-abortion views and I’m asking you questions and trying to be thorough so that I fully understand you.

My reply .....I’ve laid my views out from the start I’m waiting on you to make a defence

You say .......So, what is personhood? I know I can look up definitions myself, but it is clear to me that different people associate words with different emotions and I want to understand you specifically.

My reply .......So you don’t know what a person is really?

Ankozzz · June 2019

@Dee

Is that whole “where did I say that” thing all cleared up now? I’m not an idiot; I’m not gonna put stuff in quotes if you didn’t say it.

A fetus, in my mind, is a human independent of the mother. No, the fetus cannot live without the mother, but the fetus is its own biological entity. A pregnant woman only has one set of DNA; her own. The fetus has its own DNA.

I agree, it does sound stupid trying to save some DNA over a woman’s right to choose.

But, especially at some point during a pregnancy, doesn’t the fetus not only become just “DNA” but an actual baby? Doesn’t it become human at some point? For example, if one woman decides to have an abortion at 6 months and another woman gives birth prematurely at 6 months, is the first a fetus and therefore not human because it’s inside the womb and the second is a human baby because it’s outside the womb?

You’re probably gonna think this next one is stupid or emotional, but I’m genuinely curious. You know those signs pro-life people hold up outside abortion clinics of dead fetuses? Have you ever looked into any of that? Do you think those images are fake? After an abortion, when the fetus is all out of the woman, don’t you think the parts resemble a human baby? Even at the earlier stages of pregnancy?

Previously, I asked you if you believe a fetus is a human. You replied that “it lacks personhood so a fetus is not a person”. But that didn’t really answer the question. Isn’t there a difference between human and personhood?

Defintion of human: relating to or characteristic of people or human beings.

Definition of person: A person is a being that has certain capacities or attributes such as reason, morality, consciousness or self-consciousness, and being a part of a culturally established form of social relations such as kinship, ownership of property, or legal responsibility.

A fetus definitely does not have these person qualities, but they have human ones. But if we are “terminating” humans that are not persons, do you believe that a mentally disabled human is not a person because they lack reason and don’t have legal responsibility and could therefore legally be terminated?
*Obviously not all mental disabilities have such great impacts, but some do.

Let me know if I’ve made any assumptions about your beliefs that are incorrect or that you believe are unfair.

republicans · June 2019

I only agree with abortion if the health of the mother is in danger.

Dee · June 2019

@Ankozzz

The whole thrust of my argument is the very first question I asked on this thread as in ...... Why should any implied rights of a fetus trump those of the woman?

John_C_87 · June 2019

republicans said:

I only agree with abortion if the health of the mother is in danger.

Translation.
" I only agree with admissions as self-incrimination publicly for the loss of privacy if the health of the mother is in danger."

John_C_87 · June 2019

Dee said:

@Ankozzz

The whole truth of my argument is the very first question I asked on this thread as in ...... Why should any implied rights of a fetus trump those of the woman?

Diplomacy or Diplomatic immunity are why any constitutional right is implied, the child is not a citizen of the nation a woman is until birth and the idea of united state constitutional right is explained as an American united state only.

Ankozzz · June 2019

@Dee

I’m going to try to put this as simply as I can. This is my opinion and belief:

I believe that you and I are both humans (and persons). My rights don’t trump yours and yours don’t trump mine.

I believe that a person with severe (low-functioning) autism is a human. But, according to definition, a severely autistic person is not a person. I believe that my rights don’t trump any disabled person’s rights just because they are not, by definition, a person.

I believe that a fetus is a human. According to definition, it is not a person. I believe that my rights don’t trump a fetus’s rights just because they are not, by definition, a person.

Additionally, I’d like to know which rights you are specifically referencing? For example, are you asking if a fetus’s right to life trumps a woman’s right to privacy? (I’m not asking this with a specific viewpoint in mind, just as a general question for now)

In your latest question, you implied that I believe a fetus’s rights trump a woman’s rights. (Again, not sure which rights you are referencing). I don’t. Above, I explained that I believe everyone has rights. That includes fetus’s.

It seems that the most prominent pro-choice argument has to do with a woman’s right to privacy and bodily autonomy and such. They say, and you also seem to be implying, that pro-lifers are blatantly and cruelly denying women their rights. Maybe it appears that way. But, to us, it appears that you and other pro-choice people are not only denying, but refusing, to give fetuses any rights at all.

So I ask you again, at any point during a pregnancy, do you believe that a human fetus, although not, by definition a person, has any rights at all?
Answer the question: Does a fetus, especially when it is able to survive outside the womb, have any rights?

Your only reasonable argument thus far has been that a fetus doesn’t have personhood. But I hope, that you can see now that that argument is invalid. If not, let me know why your argument would still matter.

Lastly, I took the time to write out my “defense” and my “point”. It only seems appropriate that you respond to my comments and questions instead of answering a question with a question. Please look back at my response before this one and see if you could respond in a more argumentative, conversation-like manner.

Dee · June 2019

@Ankozzz

You say...... I’m going to try to put this as simply as I can. This is my opinion and belief:

My reply ......As simply as you can? You are using a lot of words to do so.

I’m aware of your opinion and belief why do you reaffirm them?

You say ......I believe that you and I are both humans (and persons). My rights don’t trump yours and yours don’t trump mine.

My reply ......Yes

You say ......I believe that a person with severe (low-functioning) autism is a human.

My reply .....So do I

You say ......But, according to definition, a severely autistic person is not a person.

My reply .....Who said that?

You say ......I believe that my rights don’t trump any disabled person’s rights just because they are not, by definition, a person.

My reply .....Who’s definition?

You say .....I believe that a fetus is a human.

My reply .....It’s not

You say ......According to definition, it is not a person.

My reply ......So you call a fetus a person ....really?

You say ......I believe that my rights don’t trump a fetus’s rights just because they are not, by definition, a person.

My reply ......Yes I know you believe a fetus should have a right by denying a woman a right

You say ......Additionally, I’d like to know which rights you are specifically referencing? For example, are you asking if a fetus’s right to life trumps a woman’s right to privacy? (I’m not asking this with a specific viewpoint in mind, just as a general question for now)

My reply .....I’m saying a fetus resides inside a woman by permission granted by the woman why have you a right to deny her withdrawal of this right?

You say ......In your latest question, you implied that I believe a fetus’s rights trump a woman’s rights. (Again, not sure which rights you are referencing). I don’t. Above, I explained that I believe everyone has rights. That includes fetus’s.

My reply .....It’s not “my latest question “ it’s my first question which you ignored if everyone has rights why do you deny a woman a right in favour of a fetus?

You say ......It seems that the most prominent pro-choice argument has to do with a woman’s right to privacy and bodily autonomy and such. They say, and you also seem to be implying, that pro-lifers are blatantly and cruelly denying women their rights.

My reply ....I’m not “implying” I’m saying you’s are , how are you not denying them a right?

You say ......Maybe it appears that way. But, to us, it appears that you and other pro-choice people are not only denying, but refusing, to give fetuses any rights at all.

My reply .......The fetus is there by permission why can it not be withdrawn?

You say ......So I ask you again, at any point during a pregnancy, do you believe that a human fetus, although not, by definition a person, has any rights at all?

My reply ......No I don’t

You say ......Answer the question: Does a fetus, especially when it is able to survive outside the womb, have any rights?

My reply ......What has that got to do with abortion a fetus outside the womb is born

You say ......Your only reasonable argument thus far has been that a fetus doesn’t have personhood.

My reply .....That’s not my argument but your deflection read what I asked from my first reply and attempt a defence

You say .......But I hope, that you can see now that that argument is invalid. If not, let me know why your argument would still matter.

My reply .....Read above

You say ......Lastly, I took the time to write out my “defense” and my “point”. It only seems appropriate that you respond to my comments and questions instead of answering a question with a question.

My reply .....Your failure to address my initial point demonstrates you think with emotion and little or no reason cool down and read what I keep asking yet you keep ignoring ......

You say ......Please look back at my response before this one and see if you could respond in a more argumentative, conversation-like manner.

My reply .....When you get over your emotional outbursts please attempt a reasonable response if you can but I won’t hold my breath waiting

Ankozzz · June 2019

@Dee
Before anything else, I want to just say the reason I started this conversation was so that I could look through your eyes and understand you. That’s the only reason why I keep asking questions and bringing up things you probably think is irrelevant. It’s easier for me, and many others, to understand complex things through comparisons.

Anyways, why am I getting the feeling you still didn’t read one of my posts? This is like that time you kept asking me where you said something and I kept specifically telling you where you said it. Look back. There is a specific post where I defined human and person. And, under that definition, a fetus and a mentally-disabled person are not classified as “persons”, but they are classified as humans.

No, I admit I have not plainly answered your initial question. That is because your question entails much more. For example, another person could ask the same question, but believe that abortion should be illegal after 22 weeks. That would be a signal to me that they can be reasoned with (just like you have decided that I cannot be reasoned with).

Others, such as yourself, get highly accusatory at even the mention of abortion.

Anyways, to plainly and directly answer your question: No, I do not believe that the rights of a fetus should trump those of a woman. I’m sure we agree on that. However, I do not believe that the rights of a woman should trump those of a fetus. We disagree on this because you have stated that you don’t believe a fetus has any rights. Additionally, you don’t believe a fetus is a human, which would explain why it shouldn’t have any rights at all.

I clearly understand your argument. But I don’t know how you reached your conclusions.

I think I know what I’m stuck on. I believe a fetus is a human and you don’t. Especially early on, I understand your view; a fetus can appear to be a clump of cells. Also early on, though, a fetus has a heartbeat, and soon after that, it can produce neurological waves. During these stages, the fetus probably looks more like an alien than a human. And during these stages, most abortions happen. Neither of us our experts in this topic (correct me if I’m wrong), but I’m just getting this info from UNBIASED sources of info like the CDC.

The percentages of when abortions occur during a pregnancy (week by week) after 6 weeks but before 12 weeks is pretty consistent. Most abortions do not happen at a stage where people would even consider it a “baby” or an “unborn child” (again, it was my mistake using those terms initially, I could see how that can be perceived as unreasonable). But is it a human? It doesn’t quite resemble a human, although it doesn’t look like an animal or a plant either. It’s biological makeup (body parts and the such) are not consistent with any living organism other than a human. So if it’s not a human, what is it?

I am genuinely confused about how you came to the conclusion that a fetus is not a human. At this point, I’m not even trying to argue, I just want to know what your justification behind your conclusion is to see if I could make sense of it.

Ankozzz · June 2019

@Dee

I hope I answered and discussed the main things in the one above, but to more specifically respond to your latest post...

”Simply” doesn’t mean short, it means easy to understand terms. Compare my posts to John C’s; his is complex while mine is simple.

I reaffirm my beliefs and opinions because I didn’t think I affirmed them in the first place. Obviously, I’m pro-life, but I haven’t told you my complete reasoning behind that. I though you’d want to know the whole scope of my views just as I want to know yours. That is how you have a conversation right? Getting to know each other (in this case each other’s beliefs)?

*Remember to look back at the definitions. If you need me to repost them, let me know. I just got those definitions from a google search (no biased websites or anything).

Also, before this I had assumed person and human were interchangeable, now I know they are not! I am learning from this experience, lol

”a fetus resides inside a woman.. without her permission”
I admit, that is a hard one to respond to. I’m sitting here thinking for a long time about this one. Ok... a fetus needs permission because it’s using the woman’s body. I hope you can just see through my eyes when I say this: when I read that the first thing I thought was, it’s not like the fetus is deliberately putting itself there. I thought, why punish the fetus when it didn’t have a say in the matter either. The woman didn’t want it there, and the fetus damn well didn’t want to be placed in that womb. It’s not the woman’s fault, and it certainly is not the fetus’s . So who do we punish? The woman by forcing her to carry the fetus to term? Or the fetus by ripping it apart? From my eyes, doesn’t it look like one choice is more moral and less destructive than the other?
*You’d probably consider this an emotional outburst. I just thought this puts it more simply. Isn’t that what happens during “dialation and curettage”; the fetus is dismembered?

Just explain why the first option is more moral and less destructive than the second.

”why can it not be withdrawn” because a fetus is a human (let me know why it’s not).
What I dislike about this conversation is the human argument.
Let’s just say for one second, that we both agree a fetus is not human. Then, it can be “withdrawn”, no problem right? I don’t consider dogs human either, or any other animal for that matter. Can I starve my dog to death (“withdraw” him from my responsibility)? I don’t think so. Did you know, and this is going to sound really stupid, that Hitler justified killing Jews and homosexuals by claiming that they were not human (he “withdrew” them from his perfect world). Additionally, slave owners justified their actions by claiming that Africans were not humans (they were “withdrawn” from the comfort and safety of there homes as well. That must’ve been easy to convince people, after all they look different from us. Sure they have the same biological make up, but they look different so they can’t be human, right? Do you see the parallels between your human argument and this one? Do you believe this is irrelevant, and if so explain why?

Back to your post... “what does that have to do with abortion”. Well, I was just trying to get your opinion on what is considered human. So, in your opinion, when a fetus is born it is now human and it now has rights? See, I’m just so confused. One woman is 6 months pregnant and is going to have an abortion (although rare, not impossible). Another woman gives birth prematurely at 6 months. Do you suddenly classify one as human depending on its location? I could see how the fetus is still “denying” a woman her rights, but this human thing has got me stuck. Is there a point of development that you consider human? Is it the fetus’s location? Is it a set year? Help!

Gosh, I’ve got to be more specific. When I’m not sure of a certain way of saying something, I use what I’m familiar with. Similar to how I used “unborn child” until you corrected me to “fetus”. I didn’t mean it was your entire “argument”. I’m not an idiot and I’m not trying to make you out to be one. I guess the correct term is “premise”, maybe? Your position is that your pro-choice and my position is that I am pro-life. But we both have “arguments” or “premises” behind our positions that we use to decide what position we take. I knew from your first post what your position was; my goal is to understand the reasoning behind it. That is why I “deflected” (again not my intention to rudely “ignore” it). I’m glad you brought it back up, because I probably would have forgot. Anyways, let’s not get obsessed with terminology here.

I know this conversation, especially on my end, is lengthy. I don’t want to seem irrational and emotional. What’s giving you this impression? I hope you didn’t come into this conversation with prejudice against pro-lifers. To you, I’m probably making the same stupid old comments any pro-life person would make. But to me, everything your saying is new; I’ve never talked with anyone so deeply on this topic, so I’ve never heard a pro-choice stance. I don’t know that I’m being emotional, I don’t that I’m avoiding questions. Keep reminding me, explaining, being specific. The only reason I am so openly explaining my views is so that you can comment on them, counter them, challenge me. I have a feeling that if your position is the right side to be on, I’ll know when we finish this conversation.

As far as “emotional outbursts”, I’ve consistently used “fetus” because you felt other terms were too emotionally-charged. Can’t you see I’m attempting to be “reasonable”? I thought every part of my responses were “reasonable” . Specifically point out what I am doing to sound unreasonable.

If I ever fail to answer or comment on anything you ask or state, let me know. I never intentionally ignore any of that. I say so much about one of your questions/statements that I keep typing and typing until I forget about the rest of them, but I’m trying to get better!

Plaffelvohfen · June 2019

@Ankozzz

However, I do not believe that the rights of a woman should trump those of a fetus.

There, this is the problem you're having in understanding this... The woman rights do not trump those of the fetus/baby, its right to life is not being infringed on by an abortion, even though the procedure absolutely condemns it to die...

The only way its right would be infringed upon would be to demonstrate that the right to life actually entails a right to use someone body in whole or in part, without continuous consent...

Dee · June 2019

@Ankozzz

You say .......Before anything else, I want to just say the reason I started this conversation was so that I could look through your eyes and understand you. That’s the only reason why I keep asking questions and bringing up things you probably think is irrelevant. It’s easier for me, and many others, to understand complex things through comparisons.

Anyways, why am I getting the feeling you still didn’t read one of my posts? This is like that time you kept asking me where you said something and I kept specifically telling you where you said it. Look back. There is a specific post where I defined human and person. And, under that definition, a fetus and a mentally-disabled person are not classified as “persons”, but they are classified as humans.

My reply ......I read and replied to all your posts so that feeling you are having is unwarranted , a mentally disabled is not a person under your definition wow!

So you do not see those that take part in the special olympics as such.

Why do you think I care as to how you label the fetus?

You say ......No, I admit I have not plainly answered your initial question. That is because your question entails much more. For example, another person could ask the same question, but believe that abortion should be illegal after 22 weeks. That would be a signal to me that they can be reasoned with (just like you have decided that I cannot be reasoned with).

My reply ......I prefer early stage abortions personally but that’s merely my opinion on the matter I still believe the choice is a woman’s alone

You say ......Others, such as yourself, get highly accusatory at even the mention of abortion.

My reply .....How so?

You say ......Anyways, to plainly and directly answer your question: No, I do not believe that the rights of a fetus should trump those of a woman. I’m sure we agree on that.

My reply ......Yes

You say .......However, I do not believe that the rights of a woman should trump those of a fetus.

My reply ......Why has a fetus a right to use someone’s else body without permission?

You say ......We disagree on this because you have stated that you don’t believe a fetus has any rights

My reply .......Do you have a right to use someone else’s body without permission say you need a kidney as a matter of life? If you answer no , why should you not have this right?

. You say ......Additionally, you don’t believe a fetus is a human, which would explain why it shouldn’t have any rights at all.

My reply ......You don’t either and I can demonstrate this easily , if the fetus is a baby and a human one of the most heinous crimes in society is the murder of a baby are you of the opinion women who have abortions should get life in prison if not why not?

Your attempting an emotional argument to carry your case , if you wish to be consistent all women who have abortions should get life in prison and the doctor who carried out the procedure likewise.

You wish to force people against their will to give birth to the unborn even when they don’t want to

You say ...... I clearly understand your argument. But I don’t know how you reached your conclusions.

My reply .....From the start I’ve asked a very simple question regarding rights which leaves you using terms that matter not , it’s about denial of a woman’s right to bodily autonomy

You say .....I think I know what I’m stuck on. I believe a fetus is a human and you don’t. Especially early on, I understand your view; a fetus can appear to be a clump of cells. Also early on, though, a fetus has a heartbeat, and soon after that, it can produce neurological waves. During these stages, the fetus probably looks more like an alien than a human. And during these stages, most abortions happen. Neither of us our experts in this topic (correct me if I’m wrong), but I’m just getting this info from UNBIASED sources of info like the CDC.

The percentages of when abortions occur during a pregnancy (week by week) after 6 weeks but before 12 weeks is pretty consistent. Most abortions do not happen at a stage where people would even consider it a “baby” or an “unborn child” (again, it was my mistake using those terms initially, I could see how that can be perceived as unreasonable). But is it a human? It doesn’t quite resemble a human, although it doesn’t look like an animal or a plant either. It’s biological makeup (body parts and the such) are not consistent with any living organism other than a human. So if it’s not a human, what is it?

My reply .....I really don’t care what it is to be honest you keep missing the point

You say ......I am genuinely confused about how you came to the conclusion that a fetus is not a human. At this point, I’m not even trying to argue, I just want to know what your justification behind your conclusion is to see if I could make sense of it.

My reply .....But you don’t believe it’s a human either you just say it is , let’s try you with this famous question by a guy on Twitter many years ago the (name eludes me )

You're in a fertility clinic. Why isn't important. The fire alarm goes off. You run for the exit. As you run down this hallway, you hear a child screaming from behind a door. You throw open the door and find a five-year-old child crying for help. They're in one corner of the room. In the other corner, you spot a frozen container labeled "1000 Viable Human Embryos." The smoke is rising. You start to choke. You know you can grab one or the other, but not both before you succumb to smoke inhalation and die, saving no one.

Do you A) save the child, or save the thousand embryos? There is no "C." "C" means you all die.

Ankozzz · June 2019

@Dee ;

Ok, sometimes it just seems like you don’t because of how you respond. For example, I defined human and person and told you that I got those definitions from a quick google search. Don’t get all defensive because definitions weren’t in line with your opinions.

Then you go and include stuff like “your definition” . Honey, I’m just getting this off google same as you did your definitions of “child” and “fetus”. Before this, I didn’t know there was a difference between human and person. You pointed out that there was, so I wanted to know what the difference was. The truth hurts I guess. I didn’t know a Special Olympics participant wouldn’t be considered a “person” by definition. But, remember we can’t let our emotions get in the way so let’s use facts: Unfortunately, some mentally disabled people are not classified as persons. Unless of course, you believe we should be using something other than facts to make this determination... maybe emotions?

I think you care very deeply about how I label the fetus.
No, we can’t say unborn child! That’s too emotional! That would mean that the fetus is human! It can’t be human! Being human implies personhood! If Special Olympics participants aren’t even persons how can a fetus be?
There’s a difference in labels, especially when you precisely determine what those labels mean.

What does it mean you “prefer” early stage abortions? Is there some kind of difference between an 8 week old fetus and a 22 week old fetus?

”Highly accusatory” right from the start. “How do you know what my ideologies are?” “Show me where I stated those exact words”

“Without permission” How do you suppose a fetus gets permission in the first place? Why does it need permission? It didn’t place itself there. Someone else put themselves in a position where the fetus was created. And this whole “using” her body. You are so right. A clump of cells is holding a woman hostage in her own body. It needs to be removed immediately before it ruins her entire future. Give me a break, how can you see this as reasonable? In most abortion cases, the woman had consensual sexual activity, she wants an abortion for ordinary reasons; there is no big emergency. There’s no attack on women’s rights. The woman made a mistake, there are consequences. Simple. Pregnancy is a natural occurrence. There isn’t some demon inside a woman that needs to be exorcised.

No, you should not have the right to take a person’s kidney without their consent. That is because, from conception to death, there exists the right of bodily autonomy. You can’t do anything to a person’s body without their consent. I’m beginning to think you don’t know how pregnancy works. There’s not a moment where egg and sperm talk to each other and make sure the woman and the man both want the woman to get pregnant. It just happens. There is no point where a fetus could ask for approval to live and develop in a woman’s body. That’s the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard. The fetus ought to have asked permission before it decided to parasitically live off its mother! What? Listen to yourself. So, it is established that a fetus requesting consent is not only impossible but illogical as well.
At this point you probably still don’t agree with me at all. I might’ve even had an emotional outburst and insulted the sacred Special Olympics.

Do I believe a woman should get life in prison for having an abortion?
Nope. Murdering babies is a heinous crime; I’m sure there is a special place reserved in hell for abortion providers. There is a distinction between having someone kill a baby and doing it yourself. Don’t you think you have to be criminally insane to cut a baby apart yourself? Women are terribly misled, mostly by people like you.

Think of it this way: Everyone in Nazi Germany knew about the heinous treatment of the Jews. But only a handful were punished. Even those who were Nazi soldiers and beat and tortured Jews were not punished. The men in charge of the operation, who forced the idea onto people in the first place were punished.

But yeah, if she takes a drug or something to kill the baby herself, put her in prison.

Here’s the funny thing: you see it as “forcing someone to give birth to the unborn even when they don’t want to”
but I see it as forcing someone to do what is morally, ethically, and humanely right by not giving them the option to have the fetus dismembered.

Your question isn’t simple. And if your answering it simply, you’re not thinking deeply enough about it. It’s easy to say, yeah terminate the pregnancy, who cares. The woman’s right to bodily autonomy is not the only factor in abortion.

You keep not answering the question: is it a human? And if not, what is it?

Why wouldn’t this matter? You keep playing it off as some label. Don’t you see a difference: It’s human; cut it into pieces OR That’s not human; cut it into pieces.

A. Save the child. Not a difficult choice. Embryos don’t feel pain, a 5 year old does. It doesn’t mean one is worth saving over the other. 1000 dying peacefully is much different than a child screaming in pain. Doesn’t just apply to embryos though. If there’s a comatosed terminal child right next to the 5 year old. I still choose the 5 year old. At that point it’s a principle matter.

*Don’t know if you read my last post

(obviously im not talking about the one you literally replied to)

Dee · June 2019

@Ankozzz

You say .....Ok, sometimes it just seems like you don’t because of how you respond. For example, I defined human and person and told you that I got those definitions from a quick google search. Don’t get all defensive because definitions weren’t in line with your opinions.

My reply .....How am I greeting defensive? If you call a fetus a person or a human you need to read your dictionary again because this simple fact seems to elude you

**Then you go and include stuff like “your definition” . Honey, I’m just getting this off google same as you did your definitions of “child” and “fetus”. Before this, I didn’t know there was a difference between human and person**

Where did I say there’s a difference between a human and a person?

You say .......You pointed out that there was, so I wanted to know what the difference was. The truth hurts I guess.

My reply ......let me correct you once again you said .....a fetus and a mentally-disabled person are not classified as “persons”, but they are classified as humans........

Your words not mine in your world a mentally disabled person is not a person and you cannot say why , a fetus is definitely not a person but again in your world it is and is not classed a human by any rational people anyway

You say .......I didn’t know a Special Olympics participant wouldn’t be considered a “person” by definition. But, remember we can’t let our emotions get in the way so let’s use facts: Unfortunately, some mentally disabled people are not classified as persons

My reply .....Not by people like you they’re not , I beg to differ

You say ........Unless of course, you believe we should be using something other than facts to make this determination... maybe emotions?

My reply ......Well most countries recognise mentally disabled as persons sorry to hear the U S government do not , when did that come about?

You say .....I think you care very deeply about how I label the fetus.

My reply .....I don’t , I dislike inaccurate terminology wrongly applied

You say ......No, we can’t say unborn child! That’s too emotional!

My reply ......Say what you want I care not I’m merely correcting you

You say ......That would mean that the fetus is human! It can’t be human! Being human implies personhood!

My reply ......So in your world a fetus is a person , oh dear

You say ......If Special Olympics participants aren’t even persons how can a fetus be?

My reply ......To you they’re not as you keep saying , but yet a fetus is now a person , you really are confused aren’t you?

You say .....There’s a difference in labels, especially when you precisely determine what those labels mean.

My reply ......You’ve misapplied labels from the start and you continue to do so

You say ......What does it mean you “prefer” early stage abortions? Is there some kind of difference between an 8 week old fetus and a 22 week old fetus?

My reply ......To me there’s not it’s a bit more developed, my preferences aside have nothing to do with my position

You say “Without permission” How do you suppose a fetus gets permission in the first place? Why does it need permission?

My reply ......A fetus doesn’t , a fetus is granted permission which may withdrawn at will. A fetus needs the woman’s permission that’s the why otherwise it’s aborted

You say ....it didn’t place itself there.Someone else put themselves in a position where the fetus was created.

My reply .....Yes it’s called sex

You say ......And this whole “using” her body. You are so right. A clump of cells is holding a woman hostage in her own body. It needs to be removed immediately before it ruins her entire future.

My reply ......How do you know the individual story of every woman who aborts?

You say ......Give me a break, how can you see this as reasonable?

My reply ......You mean how can I not bully a woman into having a child she doesn’t want?

You say ......In most abortion cases, the woman had consensual sexual activity, she wants an abortion for ordinary reasons;

My reply .....How do you know the reasons of all women? What are “ordinary” reasons

You say .......there is no big emergency. There’s no attack on women’s rights.

My reply ......There is an “attack “ you are denying a woman a right to bodily autonomy the law sees it this way also

You say ......The woman made a mistake, there are consequences.

My reply ....How do you know it was a mistake in all cases?

You say .....Simple. Pregnancy is a natural occurrence.

My reply ......Yes , why do you keep making these obvious statements?

You say .....There isn’t some demon inside a woman that needs to be exorcised.

My reply .....I never suggested there was

You say .......No, you should not have the right to take a person’s kidney without their consent. That is because, from conception to death, there exists the right of bodily autonomy

My reply .......Except if your a woman according to you

. You say ......You can’t do anything to a person’s body without their consent.

My reply .....But bullies like you want them to give birth to a child they don’t want without their consent on the matter

You say .....I’m beginning to think you don’t know how pregnancy works.

My reply .....But you said .....Someone else put themselves in a position where the fetus was created. .....

I had to tell you the name of that process.....remember?

You say ......There’s not a moment where egg and sperm talk to each other and make sure the woman and the man both want the woman to get pregnant. It just happens. There is no point where a fetus could ask for approval to live and develop in a woman’s body. That’s the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard.

My reply .....Yes what you’ve just written is stupid and your reinterpretation of what you think I said into your ridiculous reinterpretation demonstrating you haven’t a clue what your on about.

No one but you is talking about the a fetus asking for approval, from the start I’ve said ......A fetus is there by permission granted by the woman which may be withdrawn at her will ......why do you not get this?

You say ......The fetus ought to have asked permission before it decided to parasitically live off its mother!

My reply .....No one is saying this except you are you really this stupid?

You say ......What? Listen to yourself. So, it is established that a fetus requesting consent is not only impossible but illogical as well.

My reply ......Seriously are you on drugs?

You say ......At this point you probably still don’t agree with me at all. I might’ve even had an emotional outburst and insulted the sacred Special Olympics.

My reply .....I never said they were sacred , insult away as you did say there not persons I cannot tell you who to like or hate

You say ......Do I believe a woman should get life in prison for having an abortion?

Nope. Murdering babies is a heinous crime; I’m sure there is a special place reserved in hell for abortion providers.

My reply .....Probably there’s another place for bullies like you that insist women obey your moral dictates

You say ......There is a distinction between having someone kill a baby and doing it yourself.

My reply .....Right so paying someone to murder a baby is ok then is it?

What’s the “distinction “?

You say .....Don’t you think you have to be criminally insane to cut a baby apart yourself?

My reply ......Another deflection by you to avoid answering why you don’t want women jailed for baby murder if abortion is such

You say .....Women are terribly misled, mostly by people like you.

My reply ......People like me? Who do you think you are to pass judgement on me you stupid cow?

You say .....Think of it this way: Everyone in Nazi Germany knew about the heinous treatment of the Jews. But only a handful were punished. Even those who were Nazi soldiers and beat and tortured Jews were not punished. The men in charge of the operation, who forced the idea onto people in the first place were punished.

My reply .....Another deflection what are you babbling about now?

You say ......But yeah, if she takes a drug or something to kill the baby herself, put her in prison.

My reply .......Thankfully people like you don’t make laws

You say ......Here’s the funny thing: you see it as “forcing someone to give birth to the unborn even when they don’t want to”

My reply ......It’s forcing if she’s no choice

You say .......but I see it as forcing someone to do what is morally, ethically, and humanely right by not giving them the option to have the fetus dismembered.

My reply ......Your moral code has no bearing on the situation and is just your opinion , you still have failed to answer my original question from the start all you’ve done is given your purely emotional cry baby responses

You say ......Your question isn’t simple. And if your answering it simply, you’re not thinking deeply enough about it.

My reply ......If your input is an example of “deep thinking “ I will pass

You say ......It’s easy to say, yeah terminate the pregnancy, who cares.

My reply ......I never said that.

You say .......The woman’s right to bodily autonomy is not the only factor in abortion.

My reply .....It is nothing else matters

You say ......You keep not answering the question: is it a human? And if not, what is it?

My reply .......No , you keep ignoring my answers maybe look up the definition of fetus?

You say ......Why wouldn’t this matter? You keep playing it off as some label. Don’t you see a difference: It’s human; cut it into pieces OR That’s not human; cut it into pieces.

My reply ......More emotional nonsense I care not what it is or isn’t I keep telling you this

You say ......A. Save the child. Not a difficult choice. Embryos don’t feel pain, a 5 year old does. It doesn’t mean one is worth saving over the other. 1000 dying peacefully is much different than a child screaming in pain. Doesn’t just apply to embryos though. If there’s a comatosed terminal child right next to the 5 year old. I still choose the 5 year old. At that point it’s a principle matter.

My reply ......Excellent , so you are in favour of abortion up to 20 weeks as a fetus cannot feel pain at 20 weeks gestational age.

"The science shows that based on gestational age, the fetus is not capable of feeling pain until the third trimester," said Kate Connors, a spokesperson for ACOG. The third trimester begins at about 27 weeks of pregnancy.

You say .....Don’t know if you read my last post (obviously im not talking about the one you literally replied to)

My reply .....I didn’t there only so much I can take in a day

John_C_87 · June 2019

Dee said:

@Ankozzz

You say .....Ok, sometimes it just seems like you don’t because of how you respond. For example, I defined human and person and told you that I got those definitions from a quick google search. Don’t get all defensive because definitions weren’t in line with your opinions.My reply .....How am I greeting defensive? If you call a fetus a person or a human you need to read your dictionary again because this simple fact seems to elude you **Then you go and include stuff like “your definition” . Honey, I’m just getting this off google same as you did your definitions of “child” and “fetus”. Before this, I didn’t know there was a difference between human and person**Where did I say there’s a difference between a human and a person?You say .......You pointed out that there was, so I wanted to know what the difference was. The truth hurts I guess. My reply ......let me correct you once again you said .....a fetus and a mentally-disabled person are not classified as “persons”, but they are classified as humans........Your words not mine in your world a mentally disabled person is not a person and you cannot say why , a fetus is definitely not a person but again in your world it is and is not classed a human by any rational people anyway You say .......I didn’t know a Special Olympics participant wouldn’t be considered a “person” by definition. But, remember we can’t let our emotions get in the way so let’s use facts: Unfortunately, some mentally disabled people are not classified as personsMy reply .....Not by people like you they’re not , I beg to differ You say ........Unless of course, you believe we should be using something other than facts to make this determination... maybe emotions?My reply ......Well most countries recognise mentally disabled as persons sorry to hear the U S government do not , when did that come about?You say .....I think you care very deeply about how I label the fetus. My reply .....I don’t , I dislike inaccurate terminology wrongly applied You say ......No, we can’t say unborn child! That’s too emotional! My reply ......Say what you want I care not I’m merely correcting you You say ......That would mean that the fetus is human! It can’t be human! Being human implies personhood! My reply ......So in your world a fetus is a person , oh dear You say ......If Special Olympics participants aren’t even persons how can a fetus be?My reply ......To you they’re not as you keep saying , but yet a fetus is now a person , you really are confused aren’t you?You say .....There’s a difference in labels, especially when you precisely determine what those labels mean.My reply ......You’ve misapplied labels from the start and you continue to do so You say ......What does it mean you “prefer” early stage abortions? Is there some kind of difference between an 8 week old fetus and a 22 week old fetus?My reply ......To me there’s not it’s a bit more developed, my preferences aside have nothing to do with my position You say “Without permission” How do you suppose a fetus gets permission in the first place? Why does it need permission? My reply ......A fetus doesn’t , a fetus is granted permission which may withdrawn at will. A fetus needs the woman’s permission that’s the why otherwise it’s aborted You say ....it didn’t place itself there.Someone else put themselves in a position where the fetus was created. My reply .....Yes it’s called sex You say ......And this whole “using” her body. You are so right. A clump of cells is holding a woman hostage in her own body. It needs to be removed immediately before it ruins her entire future. My reply ......How do you know the individual story of every woman who aborts?You say ......Give me a break, how can you see this as reasonable? My reply ......You mean how can I not bully a woman into having a child she doesn’t want? You say ......In most abortion cases, the woman had consensual sexual activity, she wants an abortion for ordinary reasons; My reply .....How do you know the reasons of all women? What are “ordinary” reasons You say .......there is no big emergency. There’s no attack on women’s rights. My reply ......There is an “attack “ you are denying a woman a right to bodily autonomy the law sees it this way also You say ......The woman made a mistake, there are consequences. My reply ....How do you know it was a mistake in all cases?You say .....Simple. Pregnancy is a natural occurrence. My reply ......Yes , why do you keep making these obvious statements?You say .....There isn’t some demon inside a woman that needs to be exorcised. My reply .....I never suggested there was You say .......No, you should not have the right to take a person’s kidney without their consent. That is because, from conception to death, there exists the right of bodily autonomyMy reply .......Except if your a woman according to you . You say ......You can’t do anything to a person’s body without their consent. My reply .....But bullies like you want them to give birth to a child they don’t want without their consent on the matter You say .....I’m beginning to think you don’t know how pregnancy works. My reply .....But you said .....Someone else put themselves in a position where the fetus was created. .....I had to tell you the name of that process.....remember?You say ......There’s not a moment where egg and sperm talk to each other and make sure the woman and the man both want the woman to get pregnant. It just happens. There is no point where a fetus could ask for approval to live and develop in a woman’s body. That’s the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard. My reply .....Yes what you’ve just written is stupid and your reinterpretation of what you think I said into your ridiculous reinterpretation demonstrating you haven’t a clue what your on about.No one but you is talking about the a fetus asking for approval, from the start I’ve said ......A fetus is there by permission granted by the woman which may be withdrawn at her will ......why do you not get this? You say ......The fetus ought to have asked permission before it decided to parasitically live off its mother! My reply .....No one is saying this except you are you really this stupid? You say ......What? Listen to yourself. So, it is established that a fetus requesting consent is not only impossible but illogical as well. My reply ......Seriously are you on drugs?You say ......At this point you probably still don’t agree with me at all. I might’ve even had an emotional outburst and insulted the sacred Special Olympics.My reply .....I never said they were sacred , insult away as you did say there not persons I cannot tell you who to like or hate You say ......Do I believe a woman should get life in prison for having an abortion?Nope. Murdering babies is a heinous crime; I’m sure there is a special place reserved in hell for abortion providers. My reply .....Probably there’s another place for bullies like you that insist women obey your moral dictates You say ......There is a distinction between having someone kill a baby and doing it yourself. My reply .....Right so paying someone to murder a baby is ok then is it?What’s the “distinction “?You say .....Don’t you think you have to be criminally insane to cut a baby apart yourself? My reply ......Another deflection by you to avoid answering why you don’t want women jailed for baby murder if abortion is such You say .....Women are terribly misled, mostly by people like you. My reply ......People like me? Who do you think you are to pass judgement on me you stupid cow?You say .....Think of it this way: Everyone in Nazi Germany knew about the heinous treatment of the Jews. But only a handful were punished. Even those who were Nazi soldiers and beat and tortured Jews were not punished. The men in charge of the operation, who forced the idea onto people in the first place were punished. My reply .....Another deflection what are you babbling about now?You say ......But yeah, if she takes a drug or something to kill the baby herself, put her in prison.My reply .......Thankfully people like you don’t make laws You say ......Here’s the funny thing: you see it as “forcing someone to give birth to the unborn even when they don’t want to”My reply ......It’s forcing if she’s no choice You say .......but I see it as forcing someone to do what is morally, ethically, and humanely right by not giving them the option to have the fetus dismembered.My reply ......Your moral code has no bearing on the situation and is just your opinion , you still have failed to answer my original question from the start all you’ve done is given your purely emotional cry baby responses You say ......Your question isn’t simple. And if your answering it simply, you’re not thinking deeply enough about it. My reply ......If your input is an example of “deep thinking “ I will passYou say ......It’s easy to say, yeah terminate the pregnancy, who cares. My reply ......I never said that. You say .......The woman’s right to bodily autonomy is not the only factor in abortion.My reply .....It is nothing else matters You say ......You keep not answering the question: is it a human? And if not, what is it?My reply .......No , you keep ignoring my answers maybe look up the definition of fetus? You say ......Why wouldn’t this matter? You keep playing it off as some label. Don’t you see a difference: It’s human; cut it into pieces OR That’s not human; cut it into pieces. My reply ......More emotional nonsense I care not what it is or isn’t I keep telling you this You say ......A. Save the child. Not a difficult choice. Embryos don’t feel pain, a 5 year old does. It doesn’t mean one is worth saving over the other. 1000 dying peacefully is much different than a child screaming in pain. Doesn’t just apply to embryos though. If there’s a comatosed terminal child right next to the 5 year old. I still choose the 5 year old. At that point it’s a principle matter.My reply ......Excellent , so you are in favour of abortion up to 20 weeks as a fetus cannot feel pain at 20 weeks gestational age."The science shows that based on gestational age, the fetus is not capable of feeling pain until the third trimester," said Kate Connors, a spokesperson for ACOG. The third trimester begins at about 27 weeks of pregnancy.You say .....Don’t know if you read my last post (obviously im not talking about the one you literally replied to)My reply .....I didn’t there only so much I can take in a day

So out of curiosity how is the diplomatic immunity given to woman apply now to Medical Doctors who is practicing under state license?
How does the moment of life's very beginning relate to this legal issue anyway? life starts at the creation of egg. My reason why, humanity does not even hold a united state on time. That's why.

By the way should we have been passing law making it illegal to start life without the living things understanding of life, before the idea of questioning the start of life began to take place on knowing your alive.

An epidemic of Ex post facto law?

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